JavaFX: I'm Still Not Impressed
by Robert Cooper
JFX/F3 is pretty cool. It is something the Java world has needed for a long time. However, I am just not sure the whole JavaFX™ branding effort is really warranted here. While F3 is a great start, it doesn't put Java(FX) anywhere in the neighborhood of Flex. First, while F3 is cool, there is still a great deal of engineering work left to be done. There isn't a compiler. There isn't a really application framework for it -- though this seems to be a shortcoming of the UI guys in the Java world; how long did we wait for JSR-295..6? Most importantly, though, there is no tooling.
Flash hasn't kicked Java's butt for so long because it is sooo technically superior. Indeed, until just recently the Flash runtime itself was horrible, and it still has a long way to go, especially being sold as a real application runtime in Apollo. The reason Macromedia/Adobe have done so well is tooling, and there isn't even the beginnings of this for Java FX. Until JavaFX has a tool that a graphic designer can use with somewhere approaching the fit and finish of the Adobe product suite, it just doesn't matter. It won't go anywhere.
The second big problem with offering up JavaFX as the savior of Java in the RIA space is the quality of the Java runtime. I know a lot of people talk about the DL size, and startup times. These are valid concerns. Until LiveConnect works right in every browser, it just doesn't matter if there is an awesome declarative markup language on top of it. One of the more impressive tech demos this year is Iris, and while it works and looks cool, those guys did a yeoman's job working around the problems with making Java talk to anything else in the browser. While it is still a relatively new thing, Flash's ExternalInterface system introduced with Flash 8 works.... right... the same... in all 4 major browser engines.
I don't mean to downplay what Oliver has built. I know he has spent about 3 years working on this, and it is a really great DSL for UIs. The problem is, that DSL doesn't make a "platform" and certainly not an "environment". The whole JavaFX hypecycle seems like it came a year early. If Sun manages to break the habit of hyping somethign then walking away from it, buckles down with some resources, and delivers a great tooling option for JFX, JavaOne 2008 might be something to get excited about.
17 Comments
Jeremy 2007-05-10 16:06:46 |
I just really hope that in addition to what you mention that they truly separate the concerns of UI and programming.
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2007-05-10 18:23:09 |
The kind explanation is that the JavaFX announcements were rushed out to try and take some momentum out of Flex and Silverlight. The less kind explanation is that Sun's internal Java wars are flaring up again, and that the JavaFX announcements were rushed out to try to take the momentum out of Project Flair. |
Marc 2007-05-10 19:19:10 |
A year from now the RIA space will be owned by Flex/SilverLight. JavaFX is DOA. Move along everyone, there's nothing to see here. |
Jeff 2007-05-10 19:36:10 |
I think JavaFX or (JFX) for short, It's a great project. Its opensource, Integrated on the Java stack, I can use a great declarative language (F3) for design the GUI and using Java or the combination of JRuby on the backend I can create really cool stuff for the Desktop, Web or Embeeded. I'm looking forward to use JavaFX in the near future. I think Java is a huge momentum right now and use it everywhere. I have trying Adobe Flex, it is ok but little bit messy to work with Java and really I dont care anymore Microsoft products as Paul Graham said on his last essay Microshaft is dead period.
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klausstake 2007-05-11 00:24:12 |
In general I agree with your blog. If you're asking for tools. I'm pretty sure that they are coming very soon. Did you know that there are early stage IDE JavaFX plugins for Netbeans and Eclipse? Look here https://openjfx.dev.java.net and here https://openjfx.dev.java.net/javafx-nb60-plugin-install.html
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Simon Brocklehurst 2007-05-11 01:07:50 |
Robert,
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Tim 2007-05-11 08:24:34 |
Sun had no choice than to announce JavaFX this year ready or not. They couldn't afford to wait another year while Flex and Silverlight build mindshare. Flash's success depends on the "ecosystem" you are talking about. In the enterprise, it was the tools. In the internet at large it was the small download size that allowed dial-up users to get the plugin. The RIA "battle" is Flash/Flex's battle to lose. It's the smallest download, better cross-platform than Silverlight, and a head start. |
Chris 2007-05-11 08:54:50 |
I have to agree...Flex/Flash is the world champion in the event, with Silverlight being the brash, fit, well-funded newcomer. F3 seems to be the 98lb weakling with tape on his glasses running after them shouting "Look at me, I can do it too!" |
Tim O'Brien 2007-05-11 09:15:51 |
I'm impressed with some of the things Oliver demo'd.
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Tim O'Brien 2007-05-11 09:19:48 |
@Robert, one more thing. You wrote: "The second big problem with offering up JavaFX as the savior of Java in the RIA space is the quality of the Java runtime. I know a lot of people talk about the DL size, and startup times. These are valid concerns. Until LiveConnect works right in every browser, it just doesn't matter if there is an awesome declarative markup language on top of it."
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cooper 2007-05-11 17:14:42 |
Tim:"On Adobe products, I'm using Flex right now. It's definitely a great improvement over the Flash IDE. I think they got a lot right with Flex. I'm impressed with Flex as a product that is shipping now. I'm excited by JavaFX as a possibility, and I think that Sun is the kind of company that could pour millions into the idea right away."
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Bharath R 2007-05-11 21:32:51 |
More importantly, I'd like to see atleast basic media (MP3, video format) support added to the platform, and have F3 add constucts (of course with supporting tools) to leverage these capabilities. I'm told that though flash's codec support is very basic, it still does the job. And that's all that matters for a youtube or a google video. Until that is fixed, there's no need to get excited about Java's prospects in the RIA space. Good 2D capabilities alone won't cut it. |
Fatty 2007-05-12 06:44:05 |
I am still to understand what this is all about. What is wrong with C++. STL and boost rulez! |
Jean Lazarou 2007-05-14 04:11:54 |
Do we need a new programming language? Why don't use JRuby and implement something like a DSL using the Ruby approach? Doing so is possible, I wrote a JRuby version based on the F3 tutorial.
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mc1392 2007-05-18 07:01:12 |
Wouldn't it be nice to have UI lang/script that was good for programmers too? Maybe programmers are the audience. I sure like the idea of getting web 2.0 functionality without using javascript and explicitly checking for IE or Firefox. I guess it's still early to wonder of what problems will can be addressed, however, the anticipation is there.
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witches_hammer 2007-05-20 13:18:03 |
JavaFX is for swing programmers. the rest of you take a hike. |
Andrew 2007-05-30 12:23:10 |
I never understand why everyone thinks a graphical designer is required for a product to be good. I have been in this space for many years, and one of the large lessons I have learned is that if the language and tool are too easy the code is bad, period. VisualBasic was horrendous and Microsoft lost the war to Java, having to write its own language (.NET) to try to make up the ground.
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